profbutters | SC Ethics

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SC Ethics

I've been wanting to say something about this for a while, and after Secret #30 on

simsecret , I thought now would be a good time. For those of you who can't be bothered, it's mostly about how "misogynistic" and "puritanical"

dicreasy 's Legacy is, but it ends "at least you can't claim to be a feminist. You either, PB."

Well, it's hard to respond to something that specific. The narcissist in me is righteously pissed off to be tossed into an afterthought like that. Moving along.

Yes, I do think of myself as a feminist. I'm not going to back away from the "f-word." All feminists don't agree about everything. For example: I think single-sex education really has a place. I went to a largely female college and an all-female college in Britain and I think it was good for me. Some people would think that's anti-feminist, because don't I want equal opportunity? Oh, well. I do strongly support LGBT civil rights, and I think that's pretty clear without getting all preachy.

As for the ethics of SC: yes, it does have an ethical underpinning. It didn't start that way. It only started as a handicap: two "vanilla" ones that I thought I could keep up. Also, at that time there weren't a lot of Strict Family Values legacies. It doesn't mean I don't enjoy the 90% or more legacies that aren't. I've laughed my butt off at the shenanigans in Candi and Toast's writing, just to pick two.

As it went on, it started acquiring some kind of depth (I think.) It wasn't until Gen 6 or 7 that I had Lytton explicitly come up with the family motto: "I Will Be Good." (That was retconning for you.) What's happened is that every Goodytwoshoes, especially the heiresses, have to wrestle with what that means, because Rosie never said (i.e., the author was sloppy) and they've had to keep up family traditions.

It hasn't always been easy or perfectly clear. To Sunny, "being good" was like being a Miss America contestant: bright, cheerful, attractive, and competitive. Ruby's "being good" meant spending most of her adult life looking after a disabled husband who was not worth it. Do I advocate that for everybody? Hell, no. For Emerald, it took the form of an uncritical devotion to family. Emerald was easy to push around. For Sophia, it's been flying the flag of "to thine own self be true." One consistent thing, though: you may have noticed that they don't lie. Even Cecil doesn't lie. . . a lot. He prevaricates, but he doesn't, technically, lie. Delightful NEVER lied. She was very clear that she wanted lots of lovers. They may have deceived themselves, but that wasn't her fault.

Cecil is a funhouse mirror of Squeaky Cleanliness. He's got the details all right and the essentials all wrong. I suppose if you thought he was the moral compass of SC, you might think it was misogynistic or puritanical, but he's not. To the extent that there is a character who's the moral compass of SC (and a pure version of that would be very, very dull), it's Lytton. Lytton, who knows more about the individual heiresses than anyone, except possibly Mortimer. Both of them have raised daughters, and both have stepped in to support heiresses. Lytton, who is gentle, and peaceful, and as Jack called him, "a man without guile." I suppose my characters demonstrate a lot of different ways of "being good," and that is ethics of a kind.

I don't like to get more specific than that. I think that obvious morals are really dull, and I want different readers to be able to find something they can like and relate to. Besides, I have to maintain SOME kind of mystery here. I might get more explicit when SC is done, but right now I'm too busy resuscitating my neighborhood and my Legacy to do that.

PB

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People are stupid, Prof.

Some are, yes. I posted this for the un-stupid ones. :)

As I told Di in response to her post at the secrets, there are always people like the poster of secret #30. When I used to play MU*s, there would always be one who would completely steamroll any of the social dynamics set up in the game's scenario because it didn't fit with their modern idea of what society should be. They invariably killed any sense of conflict and storytelling dynamic because it's "wrong to not like people because of their race.." or their class or their gender or the wings sprouting off their back. There was no comprehension of history or a larger world at work. Just blind idiocy because of how they thought things should be.

That's some interesting thoughts on your heiresses, Doc. Especially when contrasted with Cecil's adherence to the letter of the law without comprehending the essence of it.

I'd hoped to write something about SC and ethics anyway. SC has developed a definite "tone" and has its own "world." It's why I had trouble with the whole murder and death thing. Revenge plots, though I adore them, don't fit the tone.

Since when does no sex before marriage equate to anti feminism? Since when does following the mores of a time for a historical legacy mean you're against women's rights?

This is why I don't like secrets communities. For every nice secret, it seems there are ten who like to stir the pot. I've read comments in various communities from anons who claim they love wank and its results. They think they're being clever. I say they're being trolls. Unfortunately, like all trolls, it's a bad idea to feed them. They crave the reaction. I've had friends driven out of communities from so-called well-meaning anons. GRRR

A lot of legacies have their sims hopping into bed with anyone and everyone. I find deviations from this norm refreshing. The restrictions also mean a lot of creative play on the part of writers like you and Di.

I've always seen Cecil exactly as you described him. He has his own sort of honor. "He's got the details all right and the essentials all wrong." It makes me sad. If he could only grasp the difference, he'd be a happier sim.

There's too much common denominator in society anymore. Anyone who doesn't follow the herd gets reviled by the sheep. Stay a wolf, or at least a really smart and wise Border Collie.

:D No, I did not just call you a bitch. I adore canines!

I love the icon you used for that, though :)

I like dogs, though my cats wouldn't agree, and I wish the one behind my house would stop howling. It's like a really bad werewolf movie. In fact, I sometimes think "I bet that's an unhappy dog that they keep tied up outside all the time."

I enjoy trying to make stuff interesting without anything exciting really happening. It's probably got less to do with morality and more to do with being a Bob and Ray fan.

Honestly, only women can inherit in your legacy: how, exactly, is that anti-feminist?

People are stupid.

And I hope your neighborhood gets better soon!

The work's going on nicely! I've made over all the townies and I'm hoping I haven't got any problems, and I'm creating my custom townies and doing a bit of building. So I'm very pleased at how it's going.

There were so many things wrong with that secret in so few sentences I can even begin to talk about all of them. But the main one was somehow associating Mysogynistic beliefs and no sex before marriage. Because honestly I don't think some of the Victorian Values or the Squeaky Clean Values are Anti feminist at all. And I've always had an issue with those people who think Feminist=sexual liberation=Slutty because that's not more the antithesis of feminist than anything else in my opinion.

And as you point out quite rightly here, your heiresses have layers and different personalities that make the adoption of the Values of your handicap appropriate in individual ways for them.

People are weird. I know people in the New Burlesque Movement, for crying out loud. But they're always being accused of not being feminist enough, too.

It's probably a cliche to say that feminism ought to be about women being able to be who they want to be without a whole lot of dumb labels, but whatever, I just said it anyway.

... PB, your post lead me to SimSecret, which I had never seen before, and I have to say I feel totally sick. I realize I've been somewhat sheltered hanging around BoolProp and the BoolProp group on LJ - I didn't see this disgusting, ugly side to the sims community until now. And I have to say I hope you don't take what they've posted to heart; after all, your writing is a story of your sims in the very end - a story, fiction! And amazing fiction / sim documentation at that! What in the WORLD does having a proper THEME in Sims 2 have to do with being a feminist? Following the logic of that secret poster all authors should carefully curtail their writing in the interest of being politically correct, since because they've written something they obviously must believe and support the actions that their characters get into... *rolls eyes*

If it helps I once was labeled a "hyper-feminist" by a girl named Sunday from a very popular RPG advertising site. Why? Because I posted a thread commenting on how so many people described their characters as "normal" only to have anime pictures of girls who had tiny, tiny waists and boobs the size of melons. The next thing I know I'm being flamed, screamed at, my own RPG black-listed, and sent harassing PMs - all saying I was a bra-forgoing, buzz-cut (which is amazing, since my hair reaches my knees), uneducated feminist who was trying to spoil everyone's good time and being too prudish. The flip side of what you're getting, but I thought I'd share to let you know this eternal truth: People are stupid, especially on the internet where they can get away with crap like this. Double so for a site that purposely is constructed somewhat to ALLOW people to lash out at others in the name of "secrets."

As for your legacy itself, I agree with rosefyre and dgjamie (and everyone else here, actually) that your legacy is in no way misogynistic - only women can inherit! Does not having pre-martial sex really "destroy" a woman's rights? What in the world?! For most of your sims, that is a personal choice rather than something they'd be strung up by their toes for.

Disgusting, childish, and low - just like most of the secrets that I see posted there. It makes me sick to my stomach to see a community that I have seen so much good and unique friendships come from also be related to something that strikes nothing but childishness and high-school politics. Please, please, please don't let it get to you - you've got support, fans, and a lot of love; an out-of-the-blue attack like that is awful, but it obviously seems to come from someone who cares very little about the actual CHARACTERS in the story and understanding their under-pinning drives. Yours is a story with depth, one you can literally feel the love coming from, and I hope that this does not burn you out on continuing to sincerely enjoy the beauty of the world you have created and been so generous to share with the rest of us.

With love,
Lettuce

P.S. - I also went to an all women's college. ;) And it was one of the best and most educational experiences of my life.

Aw, thanks, Lettuce. I didn't mean to SEND anyone over to simsecret. I don't take it too personally. If I go over there and read it, I know what I'm getting. There were some nasty ones about Boolprop a month or so ago, but they seem to have died down. I mostly prefer the gentle, supportive atmosphere at Boolprop, and when I wander over to MATY or read simsecret, I know what to expect.

I'm glad you enjoy my legacy, though. I just thought since it was brought up that some people might be interested to know some of the thinking I've got behind what I write.

I hope you don't mind a stranger commenting, but this is a sore point with me. Someone should perhaps point out to the whole world and to this person in particular that for all they're religious zeal, the Puritans knew how to have a good tumble and shot gun weddings weren't exactly rare. And also the difference between anti-feminist and misogynistic.

I love your legacy and I can't wait for the next installment.

Totally right about the Puritans. I still remember how surprised I was when I found that out. I don't even know if they were shotgun weddings. I think if a young couple was betrothed, no one was all that surprised or upset if they got started a little early, and if she was preggers when they got married? Well, good! Now we know she's fertile.

I'm glad you're enjoying the legacy!

IDGI. I mean, I read SimSecret every week, and every week I tell myself that I'm just gonna ignore it next Friday. But it's like a car wreck; you don't want to know but you can't look away.

In this case it is especially ridiculous; how, exactly, does what one does with one's pixel people equate to what one does in REAL life? And I'm just gonna throw another "one" and perhaps another "does" in there for good measure. Plus, there is a HUGE difference between being historically accurate or following a handicap for a challenge and being anti-feminist. And who the hell does this person think he/she is, that they can define when feminism means to everyone else?

Also, I have totally been heartfarting you and Doc in MATY's language thread. It's a silly argument, sure, but it is so fun to watch. I wish I could watch my profs go at it like that it real life.

WHAT feminism means, even.

Oh, NOW we enter deep waters, Watson. I hope you won't be disappointed that I just conceded and told Rohina that she is the hairiest and the scariest and the sweatiest and that she can have the belt if she wants it that badly.

I wonder if the two things are related. I don't shill my Legacy on MATY. I figure it isn't their cup of tea. But Rohina has called it "sexist" or "misogynist" several times. I just re-read that thread. Evidently, I had said something about "aethel =/= giant" and then didn't read the thread for a week. Doc stepped in, because she is an official SmartPerson (TM), and pretty much pointed out that basically, I'm right. This goes on all week, at the end of which there is a secret that mentions my misogynist legacy. I check in and Rohina's got something about my "pathetic, sexist legacy" and how I'm trying to prove I'm a better writer than she is. Also, that I ordered Doc, who is male, apparently, to do my arguing for me. Also, that I ought to have kept up with the thread.

Huh.

As for SimSecret, yeah, I figure if I look at it, it's my own fault if I'm offended. Something similar at MATY. If Boolprop is the ice cream parlor, MATY is a scary leather bar. Different clientele, different discourse.

As far as I'm concerned, Rohina is a complete waste of perfectly good electrons. She's totally full of herself and neither as clever nor as witty as she obviously thinks she is.

Also, I think the word she's looking for as 'misandry', not 'misogyny'. Just sayin'.

Anyhow, strictly speaking, "only girls inherit" is sexist. Practically, it's just a freaking game challenge.

And anyone who reads any kind of fiction and decides it represents the author's viewpoint is also really ignorant. A story and the characters in it are not the author.

I think she thinks it's misogynist because the women live in such oppression. Well, it's not anything my own Sims haven't said. Sophia was royally pissed off at some of it, even more when she realized how unnecessary it was.

Cecil would be very quick to agree that it is sexist. Very, VERY sexist. That is, unless he had been born a girl, in which case it would have been the Way Things Are, and who are you to complain? I kind of enjoy it when people think that he's standing up for Boy's Rights, when really what he cares about are Cecil Rights. And since you've played single sex inherits and Strict Family Values yourself (alas for the Highwinds) you know exactly what this challenge does. Hundreds of useless spares that blow up your neighborhood. That's what it does.

Sometimes there is a kind of connection between what the author thinks and their characters, yes, but it's never as blatantly obvious as that. That's a pet peeve of mine with Shakespeare: trying to argue "his point of view" when we have practically zip about his personal life and going on just his plays and his poems. And even when there's a connection, what does it mean? I write great, supportive father-daughter relationships. Personal experience? Wish fulfillment? And if you're a reader, does it matter, or would it get in the way of your enjoying the story?

First, thank you for the inner glimpse into your legacy's ethics. I agree that Lytton is a good poster boy for Goodytwoshoes, but so are each and every one of your heiresses (even Aurora). Because like you said it's about being yourself, and being good.

Now about the secret maker, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Like everyone said, he/she was just showing their stupidity, and ignorance, and most likely just wanted attention.

I hope the building goes well. I look forward to your next update, but take your time. If it's worth reading it's worth waiting.

Lauri

Your morals are always equal to that of your characters. I mean, honestly. I don't know how you could be so blind as to not see this, Prof.

/sarcasm

When I saw that sekrit and I was like, "HUH. Well, Prof's reply to this will be interesting." Honestly, before I even knew that you considered yourself to be a feminist, I always got the feeling that you were one. The morals of Squeaky Clean have always felt pretty tongue-in-cheek.

If we may get into a sort of off-topic conversation, do you support public schools dividing classes by gender? I think it's fine for students to be separated by gender if they request to be separated like that or if they go to private school, but I certainly wouldn't want to be told I had to be in an all-female class if I didn't want to be. (Also pretty off-topic, I am actually considering some all-female colleges. Would you recommend that? What were the pros and cons of attending one?)

The morals of Squeaky Clean ARE mostly tongue-in-cheek. There are ways in which they're not, of course, but I mean a lot of it to be funny. Sometimes my morals or my values are reflected in the characters or the story, but it's never that simple. More like "wow, it's great that Mortimer is so decent and well-meaning, but not so great that he's so naive." I do say I'm a feminist if anyone asks because the word has acquired an unfair bad rap, as in "I'm not a FEMINIST, but. . ." Of course I am. That doesn't mean I allowed myself to be bullied into studying only plays by Renaissance female authors (of which there are very few, and even fewer that were ever performed.) Maybe I'm female, but I'm also, deep in my gut, an actor, and as the Player in *R & G Are Dead* says, "we're the opposite of people."

I'm not sure about public schools. Maybe if it were a voluntary thing? I don't know. There's always the danger of separate and unequal, but then there's also research that suggests that girls in particular avoid the problems of suddenly dumbing down at 11-plus. I think Jo March's strategy of staying a girl (instead of a "young lady") as long as possible makes sense. I saw that hitting the fan when I was 11. All the girls suddenly lost interest in everything but fashion. There are high schools for the arts and a few high schools for gay and lesbian kids (and straights are welcome, from what I understand) so a few voluntary single sex high schools make sense, if it's something the student wants. Forcing it sounds like a bad idea.

I went to Sarah Lawrence, which started as an all-female school and functionally is still predominantly female (4-1 ratio.) Then I went to Newnham, and that really did have to be all women. I went to mixed-gender tutorials and I was appalled at the way the men dominated the discussion. The women really did seem afraid to speak up, which wasn't a problem at tutorials held in the college.

The only con about Sarah Lawrence was the attitude you sometimes got of "ok, where's my four women?" That, and it was such a small school and so near New York that the line was often "oh, you don't have to have the bookstore carry that/do that here, you can always go to New York." On the other hand, you really always COULD go to New York (29 minutes by train.) Newnham was so odd and anomalous I don't know if it would be helpful. Because it was built during the Victorian era, it's got a huge cloister (no kidding) and gigantic brick walls designed to keep out those lecherous male undergraduates (nb: does not work.)

Small liberal arts colleges are the bomb. All-female ones are great. Check some out and go for visits, if you can.

Also, small mostly female boho college mixers + West Point cadets + large flamboyantly dressed transvestites = good times.

Stoopid secretmaker is stoopid. As you know I wrote a monster of a reply to them over at SimSecret, and I've been debating about putting something on my LJ. The OP is obviously someone with no real knowledge of the era, who has obviously never read my legacy (and probably not yours) and has just made themselves look like a shallow fool. ("Sure the clothes were pretty" yeah...if you think that the clothes of the period were the over-ridding reason for me setting the story in the era, you need to read it and my posts where I talk about it).

Anyway, regardless of what prompted you to write this down now, it was a fascinating read. One of the many things I love about the Goodytwoshoes is how you have each heiress come up with what the handicaps and values mean to them. It all adds to the richness that is the Squeaky-Clean universe.

I've certainly never thought of Cecil as the moral compass for the legacy: I've always thought that he distorts the meaning because he is so narrow-minded and focussed.

I can definitely see that Lytton is a better barometer for the values of the legacy than his brother.

I would LOVE to read a meta on your LJ. I hope you do write one. I assumed that you were interested in the Victorian era and the challenge of writing a legacy like that (and it's a handicap, too, correct?) and the creation of some Victorian CC made it possible/easier to consider. Besides, when you started (if I remember) Judie didn't have half the stuff up that she has now. She's just as interested in celebrity and runway CC.

Cecil is a bit like the old Star-Kist tuna ads with Charlie the Tuna, where he keeps trying to prove that he is a tuna with good taste, when what Star-Kist wants is tuna that tastes good. Charlie does not understand that his perennial rejection as a tuna also keeps him alive and out of a can. Cecil ought to appreciate the fact that if he had been heir, he would have been dead ages ago.

(Yes, I take some of my inspiration from old tuna ads.)

Hey, at least one good thing came of that sekrit, and that's a mini-meta on SC goodness!

I really enjoyed reading this and I think that the different takes on morality have been a major story focus of your legacy for a while now, even before you noticed. I reread from Sunny's days on recently and the differences between all your heiresses were pretty stark. I am very anxious to see where Penelope goes with the whole thing. She's quite possibly the most fascinating of your heiresses for me so far, though I was pretty attached to Ruby for obvious reasons.

Also, Cecil seems to be the kid that's taken Squeaky Clean the most literally. For that reason alone he's better off as a spare, but at the same time, he's been a really interesting character to read about and I'm glad he's still around. SC would not be the same without him.

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SC Ethics

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